lands

[zapy]

i've noticed this site is missing two things
first...a lake...if there are mountains there are rivers which lead into lakes and such...caves might go good with this

second....i know this didn't exist in fudal japan but a desert....with all the strange things going on a desert forming isn't entirly out of the ordinary

[Kitten4u]

Well, there's a lake that surrounds the Scarlet Devil Mansion and there are probably others elsewhere, though none besides the first are notable enough to have their own board. Might add the Misty Lake at some point, but for now you can just use other places or just use a generic lake in a more specific place.

As far as I know there are no deserts in Gensokyo yet.

[Augen]

Are there any official maps of Gensokyo? If not, maybe we should put together an unofficial one for these forums. It would be quite convenient, I say.

Or we could just use this:

Image

[Kitten4u]

I'd be willing to put together a map if we could decide where everything is supposed to be. I don't believe ZUN ever made an official map though, and I'm not even sure if he's made references to where most of the places are supposed to be. I'll be sure to do oodles of script reading to figure all this out though.

So yeah, unofficial map I could do, particularly if I got help.

[Augen]

I'd definately be glad to help in any way I can. I think it'd be a lot of fun, especially considering that we might have a few locations specifically from this forum, like the Inazuma Shrine and Kaosu's Castle.

[Kitten4u]

Alrighty, I'll start on this when I uh...feel less lazy. My MSN is public so anyone is welcome to discuss this with me there, or we can just do it on the c-box. Either works for me.

---

Okay, so I'll use this post to start compiling stuff.

tHRtP says that the entrance to the two places the game takes place in is probably near the Hakurei Shrine. [Source]

I haven't played tHRtP in awhile, so do let me know if any of this is inaccurate. Shingyoku is likely the guard that guards the entrances to both Makai and Jigoku, where ever those might be. So, Makai and Jigoku are probably connected (which would make sense because even though it's translated as Heaven in game I'm pretty sure that Jigoku is still another kind of hell). The place that connects these two places needs to be near to the Hakurei Shrine because the shrine seems to be acting as some kind of seal and the shrine was destroyed before the game started.

SoEW seems to take place in that place that connects Makai and Jigoku. [Source]

Well, this required a lot of guessing on my part because SoEW is extremely vague (much like all of Touhou, fuck you Touhou canon). So here's the reasoning behind all this. Genji says "This is the Dreamworld, in between the demon world and our own." I'm not sure what Jigoku translate to (though I've seen several people translate it as just "Hell"), but I know that Makai translates to "demon realm" or something similar. We also know that the first two stages take place near the Hakurei Shrine and as I stated above we know that the entrance to Makai and Jigoku is near the Hakurei Shrine. Not to mention that Mima is the first boss you fight on the Jigoku route in tHRtP. So for simplicity's sake, I say that SoEW takes place in the same place the first five levels of tHRtP takes place.

We can completely ignore PoDD since it takes place at the Hakurei Shrine and Yumemi's ship.

LLS confuses me, so I'll deal with that later.

MS just takes place in Makai (which now seems to have a travel agency that gives tours of the human world...?), so no need to add another place for MS.

[Kitten4u]

Well, it's been 12 hours, so I can double post. >_>b Anyway, I'm going to start listing stuff we know. More detailed theories will probably be put in the previous post or a different one.

The Highly Responsive to Prayers

There is no script, so we only have info from the prologue and from any in-game screenshots we can get.

Stuff we know because of this game

-The Hakurei Shrine is in an unpopulated area

-The entrance to Makai and Jigoku are near the shrine, near enough that the beings from hell were able to destroy it and piss Reimu off enough for the game to start

Stuff that's confusing

-Where the first five stages take place. The background appears to have a torii in it, but it also looks extremly surreal. Was that just ZUN having fun? Is it really the shrine or is it the entrance to Makai/Jigoku? I haven't gotten far enough into this game to say much. I even suck too bad to play easy. *shame*

The Story of Eastern Wonderland

This one has diologue in game and a prologue. Though everything is still vague as usual

Stuff we know because of this game

-Hakurei Shrine is in the mountains (Prologue)

-There is a place between Gensokyo and the demon realm. It doesn't appear to have a canon name. (Stage 3)

Stuff that's confusing

-The name of the stage four theme is "Himorogi, Burning Violet." Touhou Wiki describes Himorogi as "A himorogi is a sort of Shinto altar: basically, an eight-legged table is set on a purified tatami mat, a sacred sakaki branch is placed upon it, and the whole is surrounded by shimenawa (sacred border ropes with paper hanging from them). Alternately, in younger times, himorogi consisted of a sacred seat erected on unpolluted land and surrounded by evergreens; this form is believed to have been the primitive precursor to Shinto shrines." Is this significant?

-Reimu doesn't seem to recognize the realm that they go to in stage three, which is making me believe that my previous theory was wrong. It's unlikely that it changes because Genji knew exactly what it was. I have no idea what this place is, so someone else read the script and see if you can pull something out of it.

Phantasmogoria of Dimensional Dream

Lot's of scenerios on this one.

Stuff we know because of this game

-There are other universes out there, but we can probably just ignore them since this takes place in Gensokyo. In fact, let's quote Kana's scenerio since there's nothing else to put here "You're talking about parallel worlds?"

Lotus Land Story

You know the drill.

Stuff we know because of this game

-There is a lake in the mountains behind the Hakurei Shrine (where is behind?). It doesn't appear to have a canon name. This lake likely flows into the lake of blood.

-Yuka's mansion is in some kind of dream world.

-Mugenkan is NOT in hell.

-Mugetu and Gengetu seem to live in a different dream world (what is it with ZUN and dream worlds?).

Stuff that's confusing

-Like everything. Mystic Square said that Yuka was a resident of the human world, not one of these dream worlds. Did Mugenkan like explode or something? Or did she just get sick of living there and move to the valley of the sun or something? How the hell can you sense evil energy and power through a dream anyway? Is Mugenkan just some place that Yuka goes when she sleeps?

-Is the lake of blood and the lake in the first stage the same place? The color of the water is very similar if not the same.

-Is the place the extra stage takes place in really just a dream? Can we just completely ignore it?

-LLS just confuses me. Someone else read the script and see what you can gather from it.

Mystic Square

Here you go

Stuff we know because of this game

-The entrance to Makai is in a cave.

And I'll stop there for now. I'll cover windows games a bit later.

[Augen]

HRtP

The existance of both the Torii and Reimu in the background of stages 1-5 leads me to believe that the first 5 stages are at the Shrine, but drawn in beer-o-vision. The form of Shingyoku, having both a priest and yin-yang form, make it a good canidate for attacking the shrine. Reimu makes the decision of whether to blame Makai or Jigoku after this battle, which makes me think that Singyoku is an attacker and not a guard... Most of that is VERY loose speculation, though.

SoEW

I don't see much to imply a change of route after stage 3, leading me to believe that you fight Mima either in Makai or right outside of it... Which is strange, being that she was in Jigoku for the previous game.
However, as Kitten said Reimu did not recognize this place, meaning that she did not cross it when entering Makai in HRtP. On the other hand, she did recognize Mima, so this game might just assume that she ONLY took the Jigoku route.

Genji refers to this place between the human and demon world as the "Dream World". This greatly confuses the bloody hell out of me. This might mean that stage 3 takes place in Reimu's mind. Because Reimu is a miko, Mima is a ghost, and Marisa is a witch, it is not illogical that they could do battle via incorporeal methods. However, that sounds very farfetched to me... And where does that leave Genji? Could he be considered a familiar of Reimu?

Anyway... Pretty much everything I've said is guessing, but what led me to my assumptions might at least help to narrow things down. I'll check out the other games later.

[Kitten4u]

I'm totally cool with SoEW taking place in Makai. Less work for me when I have to type up board descriptions (assuming I do that at some point). >_>b *shot* I'm actually starting to wonder if we should simply interpret these "dream worlds" as part of Gensokyo. I mean, isn't Gensokyo basically supposed to be a dream world? About the only dream world that seems to be a dream world is the palce LLS extra takes place in. Whoever you 1cc'd the game with actually falls asleep in the ending (I think, I"ve only seen Reimu's).

Anywho, staring Windows listings. Only got EoSD and PCB right now because I'm sleepy/lazy.

---

Continuing with the Windows games (this will be edited into my other list).

The Embodiment of Scarlet Devil

Here

Stuff we know because of this game

-The Misty Lake is likely with in eye-shot of the Hakurei Shrine (Prologue, Stage 1)

-It doesn't specify exactly how close the lake is to the Forest of Magic, but it seems to imply that there's a fair amount of distence between them. (Prologue)

-The Scarlet Devil Mansion is on an island on the Misty Lake (Stage 3)

Stuff that's confusing

-This game was actually pretty clear. The only thing that it didn't really say was the exact location of the island, but that's not too important.

-Exactly how far away from the shrine is the Forest of Magic anyway?

Perfect Cherry Blossom

Yep

Stuff we know because of this game

-I think this confirms that the Forest of Magic is NOT near the Hakurei Shrine because Marisa sees cherry blossom petals and Reimu does not. It's worth noting that Sakuya didn't see them either. (Prologue)

-The border between Gensokyo and the Netherworld is in the sky, though exactly where isn't specified (probably not important). (Stage 4)

-The Netherworld is not hell and the name of the Netherworld is not Hakugyokurou. Hakugyokurou is a place in the Netherworld. (Stage 5)

-Mayohiga (assuming that is indeed where Yukari lives) is on the north-eastern part of the border. (Phantasm)

Stuff that's confusing

-Is the Forst of Magic near a mountain? I can't tell if the prologue is implying that or not.

-Where the heck does stage 3 take place? Apparently the Hakurei Shrine is downwind (whichever direction that is) from there.

[Kitten4u]

Okay, I was looking something up in PMiSS and I noticed that it had some information on some of the locations so I decided to read it. All I have to say is holy crap I actually know where some things are now! It's very specific, so I'll actually post some specifics now.

PMiSS

-The Hakurei Border is on the eastern edge of Gensokyo. It doesn't say exactly where, but assuming Miyohiga is in the north east then I think we can safely say that the Hakurei Shrine is not there.

-The mountain the Hakurei Shrine is on is apparently tall enough so that you can see all of Gensokyo from it, so we can probably just ignore it when Reimu happens to see something.

-Kourindou isn't actually IN the Forest of Magic, though it seems to be nearby.

-The Misty Lake is at the base of Youkai Mountain.

-The Misty Lake is very small. Apparently you can walk completely around it in only one hour.

-I had to use a Babelfish translation for the Bamboo Forest, but I can make some of it out. It seems to be between the Human Village and Youkai Mountain.

-Eientei is still in an undisclosed location, though with how the Bamboo Forest is its exact location probably doesn't matter much.

-The Sanzu River is on the "other side" of Youkai Mountain. I think we can assume that this refers to its proximity to the Human Village, so Youkai Mountain is between the Human Village and the Sanzu River.

-There's a road that goes down Youkai Mountain to the Sanzu River.

-Youkai Mountain is on one side of the bank and Higan is on the other.

-Apparently the Sanzu River doesn't just flow through Gensokyo, which makes me think it either runs completely through Gensokyo, or it simply starts in one place and goes past the border in one direction.

-The Garden of the Sun is on the "opposite side" of Youkai Mountain. Once again, I think we can assume that this is in relation to the Human Village. Though, I don't think it borders the Sanzu River.

-It's in the shape of a south-facing bowl.

-There's a divine pond protected by toads about half-way up Youkai Mountain. It's apparently pretty close to the Human Village.

-The Nameless Hill is on the other side of Gensokyo when compared to Youkai Mountain. Once again I think we can safely say that this compared to the Human Village.

-I can't really understand the Babelfish translations of the Road of Reconsideration and Muenzuka, so someone else should look at them.

So hurray, we have a decent idea of where everything from the Windows games are. Makai covers 90% of PC-98, so we just need to figure out those silly dream worlds.

[Augen]

According to the stages between Yuugenmagan and Elis, there are mountains in Makai... Or at least, Makai has a great mountain view. Should we keep this in mind?

[Kitten4u]

I'd probably just keep Makai as Makai since it's probably in a seperate demension, though yeah, it's worth keeping in mind for the board description.

[Kitten4u]

Alrighty, we've got most of the places down, but there's still a couple of things that are confusing.

-I am going to assume that SoEW takes place in Makai just becasue thinking about it is hurting my head. If someone else has other ideas about it then please tell me.

-Where the heck is Mugenkan? Or should I just ignore it completely and assume that Yuka lives in the Garden of the Sun now?

-Where does PCB stage 3 take place?

-Can anyone else get better translations/understanding of the PMiSS articles that confused me?

Beyond that I think we can actually start forming stuff. Currently the biggest roadblock for me is trying to figure out exactly where the human village is, so I'll just list some stuff.

-The Hakurei Shrine does not appear to be on Youkai Mountain at all, so I think we can assume that Youkai Mountain is in the west.

-That probably means that the Sanzu River is on the western edge of Gensokyo.

-That would mean that the Human Village and the Bamboo Forest are on the eastern side of Youkai Mountain.

-The Garden of the Sun is shaped like a "south-facing bowl," which makes me think it's north of Youkai Mountain.

-If that's the case, then the Human Village is on the south-eastern part of Youkai Mountain and I can probably figure where most everything else is from there.

Though, there are a few things I still need to figure out. Most notably the stuff I listed above.

-The Lake of Blood. At this point I'm assuming it's south of the shrine because I think Mayohiga is in the north.

-It's clear that Makai has some kind of entrance, but we don't know exactly where it is. We can probably assume it's near the shrine, but we don't know much beyond that.

-Does Jigoku have some kind of entrance as well? Where is it?

-If we assume that Gensokyo is a dream world and that Mugenkan isn't on some sort of weird parallel dimension, where is it? Is it a SDM clone? That would mean it would be in the center of the Lake of Blood. Should I roll with that?

So yeah, someone please look at the Road of Reconsideration and Muendzuka for me~

[aeon]

I can help with those bits of uncertainty. I think. =o

I think the Bloody Lake is indeed somewhere South of the Shrine, relatively nearby, but probably hidden from long-distance sight, as Reimu had never noticed it beforehand.

If I'm not mistaken, Mugenkan is actually beneath the lake. Mugenkan itself is a Border between the Real World and the Dream World, so it is not a Dream World in and of itself, but rather a gateway into it (where Mugetsu and Gengetsu reside).

As for why Yuka lives/hybernates there, beats me.

Moving on, the entryway into Jigoku is supposedly in or near the Hakurei Shrine. The prologue isn;t clear as to why, but for whatever reason, demons broke loose from the Seal that had been placed on them by Reimu's ancestors - the Jigoku and Makai in HRtP are supposed to be inner dimensions of the shrine, guarded by Shingyoku.

Lastly, the entrance into MS's Makai (ie, the real Makai) is located inside a cave in the Mountains near the Shrine. Probably a closely neighboring location.